Ray Kelly

L.G.: Right, but have you ever dealt with a situation where an official executive action on your part and the part of your managers was connected with a suicide of a police lieutenant? That's tough stuff to have to deal with-all the press with the lieutenant's family saying that you, Ray Kelly, are not welcome at the funeral.

R.K.: No, I did go. I think it was unfortunate. The father told me that he didn't think it out, he apologized. And this is not an easy job.

L.G.: You've got to be internally tough. I mean, that is emotionally wrenching.

R.K.: It's a very demanding job.

L.G.: You once described the New York City Police Department as being as mysterious to outsiders as the Vatican. What did you mean by that?

R.K.: [Laughs] It's as mysterious to outsiders as the Vatican. It's a complex place, and it certainly helps to grow up in the organization. I started as a police cadet in 1962, when there was an attempt to get college graduates into the police. So it was the first class of its kind, but I've been around here a long time. I was in 25 different assignments. So it is a big, complex place. It has its own culture. It has its own mystery. But it is a superb organization. I say that having been exposed to other large organizations. There's nothing like it.

L.G.: Well, in your role as "the pope," are there any mysteries to you? Anything you don't understand?

R.K.: Define "mystery." I'm sure I don't know what's happening in lots of quarters, but that's true for any major organization. There's a system in place that makes it run and makes it perform, I would submit, very effectively, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Do we make mistakes? Sure, but this is the type of business in which you can make mistakes.

L.G.: What mistakes have you made that you regret, or that you learned from?

R.K.: I would say I really don't look back. I can't think of any mistake right now that jumps out at me, you know, that I would necessarily learn from. I'm sure there are some, but I don't dwell on them.

L.G.: Another incident that you had to deal with not so long ago was the Sean Bell shooting, another matter of huge public emotion and controversy. [In the wee hours of November 25, 2006, in Queens, plainclothes and undercover officers fired 50 times during a confrontation with a group of men leaving a bachelor party, wounding two and killing one, Sean Bell, on his wedding day.] What's the status of that?

R.K.: We did what we had to do. We asked the Rand Corp. to come in to take a look at our shooting policies. They did that, we put in place an internal undercover review committee, made up of chiefs from both inside and outside the department, who had about 250 years of police experience collectively. They made about 18 recommendations, and we adopted virtually all of those recommendations, including a breathalyzer test. We're the only major police department in the country that has that. After an officer uses a firearm, he takes a Breathalyzer test. So we responded to that situation. There is still an examination being conducted by the federal government to determine whether or not there was any federal violations involved in it. In the meantime, the case went to trial, the officers were acquitted. Administrative charges had been brought on these officers, but they've been put in abeyance. We've been asked not to go forward with those charges until the Justice Department finishes its examination.

L.G.: By the way, were you ever up for F.B.I. director? Louis Freeh got the job and you were a candidate?

R.K.: I was asked, yes, when I had this job the first time. I got a call from [Clinton White House Counsel Bernie Nussbaum], and I was asked if I'd be interested in it.

L.G.: Tell me-I noticed you gave a speech in France, at the European Policing Conference in Paris. Nice trip, Ray!

R.K.: You've been googling me! When was that?

L.G.: May 22nd of 2000. You were just talking about police work and some general principles, and you talked about the 10 commandments of management, and you only enumerated three. But I'd like to talk to you about those and any others you have. You said, "Do not hire your problems," "Do not economize on ethics," and "Do not resist outside help." Why don't you talk about those, and what are some of the other management principles that you operate by?

R.K.: I think those three are sound. I think vetting, making certain that you're hiring the best possible people for the job, given certain restrictions in civil service that you have to adhere to. But here we have a very intense background investigation, and we've hired almost half the department since 2002, and crime continues to go down. I would submit that is an indication of the quality of people that we've been able to hire.

L.G.: Even when their entry-level pay is pretty bad?

R.K.: That's right. I've had people in this office, I tell them we are in no way going to compromise our standards, I don't care if we can't hire one person. And I made that very clear, and I knew it was a temporary thing. As a matter of fact, now our applications and people expressing interest in the department, are up 90 percent as a result of the economic situation.

L.G.: Anyone from Lehman Brothers?

R.K.: Probably-also the fact that the salary is now up to $40,000. It went back up in August.

L.G.: So what have you done with those poor souls who joined at $25,000?

R.K.: Well, some of it is retroactive. The contract for the police officers has been lagging for several years. What was the other one we talked about?

L.G.: "Don't economize on ethics."

R.K.: I've put in place an ethics board here where we have chaplains and other people who you submit ethical questions to. I have promoted, with great emphasis and increasing numbers, people in our internal affairs bureau. Promotions have been disproportionate in that area. In terms of outside help, I've used McKinsey & Co. I've used Rand. I've used McKinsey for a few things, McKinsey came in to look at our lessons learned from September 11th. McKinsey also looks at our personnel practices, and Rand looked at our stop-and-frisk policies, also our firearms practices. We certainly are more than willing to use business practices, and obviously recognize esteemed consultants in the commercial world to help us to bring to bear their expertise.