A Whole Foods Customer Told the Company's Founder: 'You're Just Not a Good CEO' — Here Was His Response John Mackey has been doing things differently for a long time, and this is what he's learned.

John Mackey is cofounder and the longtime CEO of Whole Foods. But in the early days of his business, he was called something else. And it wasn't meant as a compliment: Wacky Mackey.

One of his cofounders came up with the name, as a way of mocking Mackey's lifestyle. To his doubters, Mackey seemed like an unserious leader for an increasingly serious business. He started the company when he was 24, having never attended a business class. He meditated, took psychedelics, and had many spiritual pursuits. He looked like a long-haired hippie. And while Mackey liked who he was, the skeptics ate at him. He wondered if he could grow into a fully respected leader, while still being himself.

Ultimately, of course, he prevailed — building and running Whole Foods for 44 years, until his retirement in 2022. His rude cofounder had left the business decades earlier. Mackey chronicles all this and more in his new book, The Whole Story. "I wanted to convey to other entrepreneurs that this is a journey," he says. "You have to grow, both personally and as a leader, as fast as the business. If you don't, they'll throw you out." Here, he explains how to become the leader your company needs — without compromising your values.

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In the early days of Whole Foods, you seemed like a great contradiction: You were growing into the role of a leader, and the company was succeeding, but your refusal to conform to people's expectations put some people off.

Yes. Here's a story that's not in the book. A woman was leaving Whole Foods Market. I didn't know her, but she really wanted to speak with me on her way out. So she came into my office and basically told me, "You're not like a CEO is supposed to be."

I said, "Well, how's the CEO supposed to be?" And she says, "More serious, more businesslike. You dress like a hippie, you don't dress like a businessperson. You're wearing shorts, you have long hair. You're just not a good CEO." And I said, "Well, the company is doing really well, so why do you say I'm not a good CEO?" She says, "Well, you just don't act like a CEO." And I said, "I don't know how a CEO is supposed to act. I just act like I am. I'm an authentic person. I'm not trying to be a CEO. And I'm sorry you couldn't reconcile that, but if you look at our results, they're really good." And she really had no answer for that.

What did you mean, you weren't trying to be a CEO?

I'm making a distinction between CEO and leader. A CEO is a position of authority. It's a role. You're the person in charge of the company if you're CEO, but you may not be a good leader. You may have just played a good game and gotten promoted. But leaders are those who others want to follow. A good leader inspires people and has integrity. We trust people we know that are in service to the business, and that aren't in it just for themselves.

In large corporations, you have people playing the game to get higher positions with the ultimate goal to become CEO. And the problem is, most don't get there until they're in their 50s or even 60s. So their stint as a CEO of a large public company may not be that long. It may be five to 10 years. And oftentimes they're not thinking long term. They're not thinking about, How do I serve the company best? They're thinking, How do I get that stock price up so I can make a lot of money? That's not how a leader would behave, but that is how a CEO might behave.

Related: How to Create a Thriving Workplace by Leading With Authenticity

Now I see why you didn't care about being a CEO. But how did you learn how to be a good leader?

I asked myself a question all the time, that I think other entrepreneurs should ask: What does the company most need me to do now?

If there's something you're good at, you want to keep doing it, because you enjoy it. But I found that I had to let go of those things, because the company no longer needed me to do them. I'll give you an example. In the early days, the most important decisions we could ever make — besides hiring good people — were the locations. So I headed up the real estate team for several years. I was good at it, and I liked it. But eventually, that wasn't the most important thing the company needed me to do. So I stopped. Instead, I was forced into new situations. The company needed me to be more involved in PR as the face of the company, for example. And I made a lot of mistakes in PR! But it's what the company needed.

That's why the question is important. It's not, What do I like to do? It's not, What am I really good at? It's, What does the company most need me to do now? The answer will change as time passes. But one of the reasons I was able to grow as a leader is because I kept asking that question, and I had the courage to go into unfamiliar, uncomfortable situations.

How did you prepare yourself for those new situations or responsibilities? Did you have a strategy?

I had a great executive team, and I trusted the wisdom of that intimate team. We would argue, we'd debate, and we'd make better decisions as a group. You need a team with a high degree of trust, because people need to be able to speak their own minds without fear that it's going to harm them.

I think the media often portrays people like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos as sort of like Superman or Superwoman. And I promise you, no matter how brilliant somebody is, they're backed by a brilliant team, and they're making a lot of these decisions collectively. I don't think that's well-understood.

Related: Authentic Leadership: What Is It and Why is it Important?

What's the key to building a brilliant team like that?

It's a word I use a lot in my book: It's love. People on my team knew I cared about them, knew I loved them, and that we were trying to get to the same goals together. They knew I didn't care who got the credit. You build that team through purpose and love — those are the two most important things. And not having a massive ego that takes all the air out of the room.

"Love" isn't a word you hear often in business. In fact, many people say you need to leave your emotions at the door. Can you make the argument for talking more about love in business?

I understand what you just said, and [unbridled emotionality] is a misunderstanding of what love is. Love means you care about people, you care about what happens to them, and you care how they feel. You still have to make hard decisions. Your first responsibility is to the collective good of the whole business. That may mean somebody's outgrown the business and they need to move on. You can still love them. You can still do that in a way that's caring and do all you can to help them land in a good spot.

You will not inspire people, and you will not create loyalty and commitment, if people do not feel that you care about them. So that's the answer to your riddle. You have to be a servant leader, for the good of the whole. But you don't have to shut your heart down.