Want to Get the Credit You Deserve for Your Work? Do This, Says Bozoma Saint John — Who Ran Marketing for Netflix, Apple and Uber You probably can't name many chief marketing officers, even if they worked for high profile companies. Bozoma Saint John says that making herself "well-known" was an intentional strategy, and it's one that you shouldn't be shy to try.

If you know Bozoma Saint John's name, that is not by accident.

Yes, she's held high-profile corporate roles — working as the global CMO of Netflix, CMO of Endeavor, chief brand officer of Uber, head of marketing of Apple Music and iTunes, and head of music and entertainment marketing at PepsiCo. But now that she's working independently, she's happy to say that when she took those jobs, she was very intentional about being visible in them. She got press. She received industry awards. And that's because she believes very strongly: If you don't get attention for your work, you'll just be overlooked.

"People still say I'm self-centered," she says. "Well, if I'm not self-centered, who am I supposed to be centered on? Who? Please tell me it's not you."

Saint John wrote a memoir earlier this year, called The Urgent Life, about her work, the loss of her husband to cancer, and her message that people should live their lives with intentionality. In this conversation, we discuss how to get what you want — even if it makes you uncomfortable — and how the hardest paths can prepare you for the greatest achievements.

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You're well-known for working at some of the world's biggest companies. What was your strategy for building your career?

Oh my gosh. Let me tell you this. This applies for everyone, but especially for women trying to become a better-known executive. One of the most undervalued ideas is: When you are better known for the things you do, your value goes up.

I became an expert at negotiating how public-facing I can be on behalf of the company. Because the moment you are hidden underneath somebody else, or you don't get the credit for the work that you're doing, the less you are known for your expertise. And you want to be well-known for the things that you do, so people come and seek you for your next job.

What does that negotiation look like?

When I took the job at Uber [after the company had gone through multiple scandals], I had already been on a big stage for Apple Music. As soon as I was negotiating my package for Uber, one of the things I said was: "Look, if I'm going to come here at a time when it's a little bit of a disaster, and we're trying to fix a brand image, and I'm going to be the chief brand officer — it's imperative that I'm out in front." And in doing that, I increased my own popularity.

Sometimes we forget that if you want to increase your value, that does not just come in your paycheck. When you're negotiating, don't just consider the money that goes into your bank account. You're also negotiating on the equity in you.

Being selfish is not a bad thing. Being selfless often gets glorified, especially for women.

Oh God, don't get me started on that.

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How would you recommend someone build their personal brand? I don't mean on Instagram or as an influencer — I mean within a company, or when they have a side hustle they're starting.

Here's the thing: We get so confused by some of these words. We think a brand doesn't exist, and that we have to go build it. Your brand already exists. It's called your reputation. And if you are not actively involved in it, then somebody else is creating it for you. So would you rather leave your reputation
up to somebody else's imagination, or would you rather do it yourself?

Start talking about what you do. Why are you unique? And if you don't know the answer to that, then start at the step below: Why are you special? And if you don't think you're special, I need you to go one level below that and figure out: Why don't you think you're special? Why do you not think there's something unique about you that can be glorified, that can be celebrated? That's how you build your brand equity and brand love. It's a result of understanding all of that and being able to sit in it comfortably. This is not arrogance. It's awareness.

A lot of the time, people's trauma or grief stands in the way of that awareness. You write about how your own grief impacted your career. How can someone use that to make themselves more powerful?

This is critical. People don't want to express or be seen as vulnerable. That is such a disservice — because just like all your work experiences make you unique for a certain job, so do your personal experiences.

I am a much better leader — a much more empathetic leader — because I'm a widow. I understand what it's like to sit at the bedside of someone who has terminal cancer and watch them die. I am a much more empathetic leader because I'm a single mother. I understand people better. The things that feel messy, like they should be hidden — that's your superpower. It makes you even better than everybody else, because you've been able to not just manage it — it's also made you more self-aware. You know when you need some space and time away, and that you're going to come back and be stronger because you didn't push through it.

This is all part of creating your boundaries, or communicating how you work so that you can manage whatever you're going through. I've struggled with depression. It was very difficult for me during college. But I would find that mornings were okay. There were afternoons and evenings that became too much. That changed the way that I work: Even though I don't struggle with depression now, my most effective hours are in the morning. That's why I wake up at 4 a.m. and work out at 5 a.m. I like a 7 a.m. meeting — I'm bright at that time. Being your best means self-awareness, and being vulnerable enough to communicate what you need.

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Your book is The Urgent Life. How would you advise someone to live more urgently?

We focus so much on what is coming that we forget that the living is in this moment. Are you satisfied in your life? We are so ambitious all the time that we think we must be hungry for the next day. The truth of the matter is that regardless of how long your life is, you want to be satisfied.

Again, I've had the unfortunate experience of being at the bedside of someone who died way too early — my husband Peter. We didn't talk about the things that he "should have" done. We talked about the things he had done — if he was happy in the life he had lived. And I want to get to the end of my life and be so satisfied. And so right now, even as I have great ambition, and I have high hopes for the future, I am satisfied in my life. If I were to go tomorrow, I would be so happy with the life I've lived. And if you don't feel that way, I urge you to change the life that you're living right now.

To hear more, find Nicole Lapin's podcast Money Rehab wherever you get podcasts.